...the use of force.
I'm going to say that I'm admittedly underinformed about the Middle East.
That said, in regards to the current escalation between Hezbollah and Israel, I have to say, "F**k you up some Hezbollah, dude."
I'm sure, since they're humans, that not every Israeli soldier is a saint and solely protecting his sovereign nation with fairness, patience, and precise discrimination. I also know that an impoverished populace of Arabs that have been raised to religiously and culturally desire the destruction of the Zionist race/culture/religion have a large chip on their shoulder. Couple that with the fact that more and more Muslims feel persecuted for the nervous glances they all get from people (or the sanctions and pressure being placed on their countries by the world). You get some pissed-off Hezbollahns [yes, I made that up].
Simple story I'm getting from the news: Hezbollah hates Israel. Hezbollah fires rockets across the Lebonese border into Israeli cities. They kidnap Israeli soldiers. There has been no formal, official, or clear statement of war between Lebanon and Israel, yet members of Hezbollah, which holds official posts in the Lebonese government, have kidnapped Israeli soldiers.
Result? Israel doesn't go to the UN (which hates Israel anyhow), like the Japanese, begging for some resolution. Israel acts like a sovereign nation and goes hunting the bastards.
I'd definitely like to see surgically precise strikes on Hezbollahn targets that don't kill civilians, but it happens. Not to say that it's not sad when a civilian dies, but it does happen. Factor in that I find it extremely plausible that Lebanon and Hezbollah both end up claiming some of those casualties as civilian when they were actually unidentified Hezbollahns [I kind of like my made-up word].
Regardless, consider if the Green Party (do they hold any position in the government? Let's pretend like the they hold a seat or two in both houses) in America decided that the Mexican government were evil (not too far off base) and officially announced that its purpose, along with making everyone wear hemp clothing and drinking soy milk, was the obliteration of the Mexican people. Then the Green Party dons its masks (though the disguise isn't successful at all...you can always tell the Green Party folks...the hairy pits on the females, the wimpy lack-of-chin males, and the screeching voices)and fires rockets into some Mexican towns...
[NOTE: I bet Mexico would be a little better off with some spring cleaning using some rockets...]
Then, they kidnap some Mexican soldiers (luring them with the opportunity to work at a local golf course and all the Corona they can drink).
I'm fairly sure the entire damned world would scream...freaking shriek...for America to reign in the Green Party and clean up its own house. Mexico would threaten with violence.
Guess what! I'd like to think the U.S. would beat the hell out of whoever did this and get those soldiers back to Mexico. Hell...those soldiers would probably end up with EZ dual-citizenship, free houses here, and a gigantic ass-kissing party thrown in honor of Vincente Fox.
If it didn't happen, there'd be hell to pay and I'd have a hard time blaming Mexico if it crossed the border, acting like a sovereign nation--treating another sovereign nation the way it should be treated when a sovereign nation doesn't do shit about what members of its own government are doing to other sovereign nations.
I know, I know...I'd be mad too, if Mexico starting bombing our airports and blockading us (snicker), but they're specifically not like Israel in this analogy because they're not surrounded by nations with the same culture that shares a goal--we want all of you to die so we can take your land. So, no...I wouldn't think it's right for Mexico to go bombing our airports--but in Israel's situation, I think they pretty much have to win their battles by convincing all the others that they're more dedicated to winning that the other side.
Get your soldiers back, Israel. If you can, blow the hell out of any Hezbollah-type targets you can. Do your very best to leave Lebanese civilians alone. Pressure the hell out of Lebanon to crack down, too.
Hezbollah...throw down your weapons, turn yourself in to the Lebonese government, hand over the soldiers...and the crap storm can stop. That simple.
I now await your more balanced thoughts, comments, and "helpfulness."
posted by Matt @ 7/15/2006 05:20:00 AM
6 comments
6 Comments:
Well I think a better analogy might be if elements in Mexico launched an attack on the US. For all the talk of how polarized the US is, our internal politics have been pretty peaceful (in the grand scheme of things) for 141 years. Lebanon's internal situation has been stable since...oh, about last week. The US would actually be capable of reigning in rougue elements. I'm not sure that Mexico could--and I'm almost positive that Lebanon (by which I mean the government of Lebanon) cannot.
I think Isreal has every right to act in its own interests--as you've pointed out, for them it is a matter of survival.
However, I also think it's on them to keep things from escalating out of control, if only because they know no one else will. And it's difficult for me to see their response as anything other than out of proportion with what they claim to be responding to. But then again, I'm not surrounded by people who want nothing more than to kill me...
I don't think Isreal is stupid. I don't think they can't anticipate what escalation will lead to. If Isreal ends up in an all-out war with Lebanon, Syria and Iran will likely become involved on some level. In the middle you have Iraq with I don't even know how many hundreds of thousands of US troops. Our relations with Iran are increasingly hostile. It isn't difficult to imagine a scenario in which the US will be forced to engage Iranian and/or Syrian forces to protect the troops already there--at that point our alliance with Isreal is almost incidental--just one more reason to start fighting on their side.
This could get really messy. Do I ever hope to be wrong.
See also
If it really precipitated the way they say it did, I say fuck 'em up, Israel! Mortars up their arseholes!
"they're not surrounded by nations with the same culture that shares a goal--we want all of you to die so we can take your land."
I'm sorry...what? Who took who's land?
That comment is a bit like accusing South African blacks prior to '91 of trying to wrest power out of the hands of whites, or saying that those damn Indians have been fighting Americans since 1620. Technically true, but grossly misleading because of an atrocious lack of information.
Perhaps the first analogy is more appropriate, seeing as how Israel is the world's last bonafide apartheid state.
I agree that Hizbollah's kidnapping of two soldiers what an audacious provocation and that they seriously underestimated what Israel's response would be, given that the last time such an incursion (in 2001, if I'm not mistaken), Israel opted for a prisoner exchange. So, yeah, Hizbollah fucked up somethin awful on this one.
But, in condemning Hizbollah's provocation, let's not forget the ultimate cause of Arab anger and Israel, which is the massive displacement of people in the war of '67 and the founding of the state of Israel in '48, the massive illegal immigration of millions of Jews in Palestine in the decade prior to the latter (not to mention the 19th century rascist-nationalist ideology that propelled said immigration) and the denial of the right of return for refugees.
Good game, trying to turn a sympathetic eye toward Arabs--though, the whole "who was here first" argument pretty much breaks down like RNA. Still, I'm glad someone besides the French, all Arabs, the Anti-Semitic UN, and Iran are standing up for poor ole' Hezbollah. With your link, the chain gets a whole lot stronger! Woot!
Hezbollah is lucky by a damn sight that it took something like this to piss of Israel enough to start a shit-storm of the one they're currently calling down.
It's much akin to some little bastard who has a huge ass brother, picking and picking for years on another kid. The snively little bully relies on the kinder, more patient restraint of his victim , coupled with the assumed social backlash the rest of the playground will inevitably throw out there because the victim is so much stronger than the sniveling, conniving bully. Toss in that the little shin-kicker is hoping that if the shit hits the fan, his huge-ass brother will wade in and save the day.
One of the most prevalent tactics of terrorists is to use the very restraint and moral self-assessment of their victims against them.
Case in point, Al Queda loves the fact that Americans are so hand-wringingly self-examining that we'll judge, rejudge, and test and retest the legitimacy of --jailing-- an Al Queda operative who was unsuccessful in carrying out his portion of the 911 attacks, attacks that killed thousands of Americans on our sovereign soil.
Very kind of you to begrudgingly agree that Hizbollah (you say Hiz, I say Hez, you said tomato, I say...you get the picture) "fucked up something awful." Duh. This fight could be about so much more than just the 2 kidnapped soldiers...the Israelis have plenty of ass-kicking to do for all the crap local Arab states and nations have been starting and trying to start for millenia. Luckily for Lebanon and those asshat Hezbollah "insurgents," the Israelis have held the arrow on the bowstring, waiting for the UN (and more importantly, the US) to give them a reason to stop--trust me, if I were an Israeli soldier, I'd be wayyyyyy more tempted to drop the hammer on Lebanese targets without a lot of prejudice. That said, if Israel really wanted to roll, they'd have gotten out their Six Days War playbook. Few military forces in the world can match Israel, pound for pound.
So, anyhow...back to the land deal...there was and never has been any "Palestinian State"--that is, until Israel said, "sure...okay...your newspapers teach your people that we kill Arab babies and eat them in soup, but sure...have your own state on land we took control of after being ganged up on by 6 Arab countries." On top of that, you should toss any other land-grabbing claims at the feet of the internation body that provided Jews their land...the UN. Boy, do they wish they could take that back now!
No atrocious lack of information here, Austin. Arabs and Jews (more accurately Hebrew nomads) have occupied that land for millenia, peacefully sometimes, but restlessly most of the time. No telling who was "here first," though Hebrew history dates back to earlier times than that of Islam, so yeah...maybe the Jews were there first. Ever heard of things like the Diaspora? I thought people who hugged their Ayatollah teddy bears goodnight would be sympathetic to people who are akin to the good ole' kicked around American Injun...
Hell...go check Wikipedia...a lot of that "illegal immigration" (Mexicans get called "undocumented workers," but Jews are "illegal immigrants???") was Jews returning and purchasing land.
Hah! Gotcha! Those filty rich, money grubbing, penny-pinching, beady-eyed Jews! They bought the land!!
Dude...who sold it to them? You're not going to say they got all Wal-Mart and "forced" Arabs off the land by making them sell out, are you?
It's your analogy that doesn't hold water...Africans fighting Dutch settlers to regain their land? Sure! Absolutely! That's a clear case of you don't belong here since there had been no racially white people inhabiting that land until Europeans came along--completely irrelevant to the land disputes of Jews and Arabs.
What? By 1948, some sort of statute of limitations arises and the Jews, who'd been kicked off their land have no claim to return there since it's been a damned long time? Are you really claiming they should have remained in the countries they found refuge in and built some casinos like the Injuns?
I laugh...sorry, not quite accurate..I GUT-LAUGH...at your claim that Israel is the world's last bonafide apartheid state. Those damned Zionist fascists could have plunked their little capitol flag in Jerusalem, knocked down the nifty little dome where Mohammed did his Rocketeer routine, and kicked Arabs out. Granted, they refrained from this more out of political and survival motivations, but one might grant they have at least an ounce of graciousness or altruism. What's more, in the portions of Israeli land that has clear, controlled law-enforcement (read: any place that isn't always being threatened by dudes with TNT and alarm clocks strapped to their chests), the Freedom House rates the political rights granted to people living in Israel a 1 (1, being "the most free").
Arabs make up a minority of roughly 18% and Muslims are free to practice their religion openly. Hell, the Israeli government is known to use its tax money to keep some prized Muslim landmarks kept nice. What do you get in a lot of neighborhoods in Lebanon, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan? A welcome mat and tea party thrown for the diversity Jews bring when they want to immigrate there? Right. Right...right.
Face it: defenders of terrorist organizations like Hezbollah and people who agree with the goals of Arafat's Fatah (not that you mentioned those losers) totally underestimate...or refuse to recognize...the sheer racism and bigotry of their sponsors--nations like Iran that sponsor terrorism and have as state issued aims to wipe Jews from the face of the Earth.
Yeah...those pesky Jews. Apartheidist racists who've done nothing but be mean and nasty to those peace-loving worshippers of the ever-peaceful reglion of Islam.
Austin, I realize I've been an ass in this reply and if you're pissed at me, I don't blame you. I just drank 3 (working on 4) Sweetwater 420's and reading your reply got me fired up! Thanks! You see any typoes, you point 'em out, okay? Otherwise, fire back. You made me actually leave my World of Warcraft site and check out wikipedia on a Friday night. Don't ask me what I'm doing playing video games on a Friday nigt.
Fine. I'm geek with a wife who got home late from open house and is getting up early in the morning for a teacher training.
Come on back, Austin. I liked you dropping by.
[edit] Technically, there was a "Mandate of Palestine," adminisered by The United Kingdom post WWI. Named thus for "Falastin" in Arabic and "Palestine" in Hebrew. Check out wikipedia for more info
(copy and paste: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War )
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